Home > Uncategorized > Patriot Act and ObamaCare

Patriot Act and ObamaCare

If so many people of all political persuasions are skeptical, if not fearful, of the control and power the government wields through the Patriot Act, than why are so many happy to hand control and power to government in other things such as health care?

It’s not to say that security couldn’t be handled through private means, but it is one of the few powers that the government is supposed to have. I’m not happy about trading freedom for security in any circumstances, but if I had to choose I would be more comfortable entrusting government with security powers over health care powers.

Perhaps a liberal could explain to me how handing government power through ObamaCare is better than through the Patriot act. I want to know how it is somehow less dangerous, more acceptable, for the government to have such involvement in one area but not another.

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Categories: Uncategorized
  1. 2011/05/04 at 15:52

    The Patriot Act seeks to limit liberties on average. The health care law seeks to increase access to health care, thus reducing overall harm.

  2. 2011/05/04 at 16:32

    We’ll see (or maybe we won’t). Since it’s now clear that it isn’t going to do a damn thing for cost, lets hope that by “increasing” access it doesn’t decrease quality.

  3. 2011/05/04 at 20:21

    Not only decrease quality, but it also is impacting what sort of policies people can have, and forcing those who would otherwise choose not to purchase insurance to purchase it. And as you pointed out it will cost more. And no indication it will increase overall health.

    The Patriot Act on the other hand really doesn’t have much of an impact on what we can and can’t do – though there is an argument that it allows the government to know more about what we do, making it more intrusive. Of course the same can be said of Facebook.

  4. 2011/05/06 at 23:26

    We’ll see (or maybe we won’t). Since it’s now clear that it isn’t going to do a damn thing for cost

    You made that up.

    lets hope that by “increasing” access it doesn’t decrease quality.

    You say that as though more people aren’t going to have health insurance. They are. And what’s more, they won’t be using emergency rooms for preventable conditions nearly as often (which lowers costs).

    Not only decrease quality

    You made that up.

    but it also is impacting what sort of policies people can have

    You made that up, too.

    and forcing those who would otherwise choose not to purchase insurance to purchase it

    In many nations where this happens, not only is quality of care superior in many areas to America, but cost is lower. But then, you’re ideological so the idea of sacrificing nebulous, abstract “liberty” for the health of actual human beings conflicts with what you selfishly want.

    The Patriot Act on the other hand really doesn’t have much of an impact on what we can and can’t do

    Dishonest goal post moving. The Patriot seeks to limit basic liberties such as privacy.

  5. 2011/05/07 at 03:34

    I’ll at least respond to my bits.

    So health care and/or health insurance costs have gone down? I was under the impression that increases had increased in speed. Damn that data thing, inconvenient at the best of times.

    And I say ‘that’ Michael not as if more people won’t have insurance, as you should know, access does not equal quality. In fact the two are hardly linked at all. I can take my car to the mechanic but if he is too swamped to provide me with services, or the government has interfered with the tools he can use solely because of their cost, the care my car gets is likely to be crap, if it ever gets the care.

    The only other I’ll respond to is your last. Jack didn’t move any goal posts. The patriot act hasn’t limited what anyone can do, that’s part of my point to begin with, one that Jack picked up on. That isn’t the source of objections to the patriot act and I’m not a big fan, but the idea here was comparing handing the government power, not the base objections to the patriot act.

  6. 2011/05/07 at 05:25

    So health care and/or health insurance costs have gone down? I was under the impression that increases had increased in speed. Damn that data thing, inconvenient at the best of times.

    I didn’t say anything has gone down, nor should we expect anything to go down before much has even been implemented.

    And I say ‘that’ Michael not as if more people won’t have insurance, as you should know, access does not equal quality. In fact the two are hardly linked at all.

    They’re strongly linked when the alternative is having nothing.

    I’m sick and tired of this myth that America has the best health care. It doesn’t. Unless I maybe want an MRI, I’ll take Canadian health care over our awful, broken third-world system any day.

    The only other I’ll respond to is your last. Jack didn’t move any goal posts. The patriot act hasn’t limited what anyone can do, that’s part of my point to begin with, one that Jack picked up on.

    Come, come now. You know Jack is NOT an honest person.

    The point was that the Patriot Act limits liberties. For example, it allows the government to spy on its citizens without appropriate oversight. That’s a big piece of the argument everyone has been putting forth, and it’s what I was talking about. Recognizing that being spied on doesn’t – in principle – change what a person does or does not do, Jack had to shift the argument.

  7. 2011/05/07 at 05:33

    Costs aren’t even projected to go down after full implementation Michael!

    We have the same healthcare any western country has. The same machines available, the same drugs and the same training or better for our doctors. Everyone already has access to life saving care, the issue of access has always been a cost based one not one based on people not being able to get medical attention. Don’t try and project this like or system is any worse than Canada or England or anyplace else. If its a question of access to technology, we blow them away, if its about cost of care, we don’t.

    And you are free to move to Canada anytime you like. This isn’t one of those “love it or leave it” arguments, just that if it’s that much of a positive perhaps you would be better off there. I for one will take the system where I get seen quickly and treated quickly and where anyone can get emergency care. If the government is going to pay for everything its going to have to ration things, to do otherwise is fiscally and morally irresponsible and unsustainable.

  8. 2011/05/07 at 05:40

    The comparison was the point. Governmental power was the point. If the government is seen as too irresponsible to have patriot act powers why is it responsible enough to have even more oversight of the health system? That was my question.

    If I don’t trust them with having possible access to me talking on the phone to my grandmother why do I want to let them have control of my medical records and decisions?

  9. 2011/05/07 at 06:32

    A substantial part of our costs here are due to a lack of preventative care for the uninsured and under-insured. Canada and the rest of the West avoids that problem. And they also avoid a lot of the overhead that causes doctors to hire a small army of people in order to deal with all the insurance companies and the attempts to not pay for treatments.

  10. 2011/05/07 at 06:45

    Again that’s a cost problem, not a quality problem. Where is the evidence that anyone has better quality than us? it just isn’t there. Part of that is because you can make a profit out of it. Price controls will just slow future developments and setting reimbursement rates low is nothing but a price control.

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